[00:00:01] You’re listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:22] Are you a CEO looking to scale your company faster and easier. Checkout Thrive Roundtable thrive combines a moderated peer group mastermind expert one on one coaching access to proven growth tools and a 24/7 support community created by Inc award winning CEO and certified scaling up business coach Bruce Eckfeldt. Thrive will help you grow your business more quickly and with less drama. For more details about the program, visit . That’s E C K F E L D T. com / thrive.

[00:00:57] Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services, I’m Bruce Eckfeldt. I’m your host. And our guest today is Craig Overmeyer. And he is a coach, a fellow scaling up coach out of Indiana. I wanted to bring him on the program today to talk a little bit about what’s going on in the world. You know, we’re facing this COVID 19 situation, crisis, pandemic, depending on how you look at it. And there’s been a lot of conversation in the coaching community around how we as coaches, you know, help leaders with not only with their businesses, but really with themselves, with their communities, how they are going to play a part in helping not only deal with the crisis that we’re in right now, but also sort of the recovery and the process afterwards of rebuilding and processing all this. So I wanted to bring Craig on and talk a little bit about his background. He has some really interesting experience working with law enforcement and helping with crisis, hostage negotiation, death notification. There’s a lot of interesting kind of experience and training that I think has put him in a really unique in a position to work with his clients and with leaders. And so I wanted to have a conversation about that and just kind of talk about what we’re finding is working for folks. And honestly, I think this could apply, whether you’re a CEO of a company, whether your, you know, helping your community, whether you’re leading your family. I think all these all these things, all these leadership skills are going to apply to just about everyone dealing with the situation. So I hope we can create some interesting conversations, takeaways with that. Craig, welcome to the program.

[00:02:15] Yes. Thank you, Bruce. I’m honored to be here. It’s an amazing time. This global health care crisis is now a business crisis. And so I’m really interested to have a dialogue with you. And hopefully everyone can go away with some very specific takeaways.

[00:02:30] Yeah. Why don’t we talk a little bit about learn a little bit more about you and your background. I mean, tell us a little bit about how it gets kind of how you got into coaching. What were you doing before that? I know you have quite an extensive professional experience, training, certifications. I think we’re all kind of learning junkies and the coaching. I know you’ve done a lot of work on various aspects of psychology and leadership and business. Give us a little background.

[00:02:52] Yes, I worked as a pastoral counselor. I have a doctor of ministry, but I primarily worked at St. Vincent Hospital Distress Center. And back then I worked with business owners and their families. It was called therapy coach coaching. So I had a extensive brand here and in Annapolis and also did some work with the Indiana State Police, trained by the FBI to do hostage and suicide negotiations. And so big part of my work was not only working along side them during these really intense crises, but also doing critical incident stress debriefing for the first responders, the police officers themselves, the firemen, etc.. And so that should give you a little bit of that background did in nineteen ninety nine. It was 20 years of that and it was time to get some new energy. And so I was trained by a local coach in this model called coaching. It was called real time coaching. And so I have continued to work with my clients and as a coach bringing coaching skills into the manager role and to the senior team role and really focus on cultural transformation. In 2007, I got a call from Vern Harnish. She had gone to an EO conference and asked who he should know in Indianapolis. And my name came up and he asked if I would be interested in the skating community. So since 2007, I’ve been involved not only as a scaling up coach, but also working with the community and offering as much as I can to help develop coaches to impact their clients in a positive way.

[00:04:21] Yeah, I appreciate you’ve made a lot of contributions to the coaching community, which I have benefited from having been a coach now for four or five years. And it’s one of the reasons I love the scaling up coaching community because it is so generous and and people help each other out quite a bit. So and having been I’ve been on this podcast today and everybody is just an example of that. So I appreciate that.

[00:04:40] So what do we talk a little bit about the current situation and how how you kind of frame it as kind of a type of situation? Because I think one of the things that I’ve certainly noticed being in the New York City area and, you know, working with a lot of people in this area is, well, you know, New York, you know, unfortunately, has been through 9/11. We’ve been through Sandy. We’ve had a series of these kind of, you know, major kind of cataclysmic events. This one is a little different in that at some level we’re still kind of waiting for it while it’s getting bad and it’s it’s getting worse. You know, we’re it’s still not at a peak. It’s kind of this this slow tsunami that’s coming, which I think is contextually just different terms of how you. Have to process and everything else was kind of recovery. This is very much about preparing or dealing with the situation. Give me a sense of how you’ve seen things kind of play out or how you kind of see it as kind of a quote unquote, crisis situation. And what do you see the dynamics that are important to understand?

[00:05:36] So I’m learning a lot from Mark Devine, former Navy SEAL, who’s written a book recently called Stared Down The The Wolf Stare Down the Wolf. Then the concept is, is that you have to answer the question, what does it take for your team to become to serve or to commit as an elite team? And so that’s what I’m I’m helping the teams. I fifteen midmarket executive teams and CEOs been communicating a lot with all of them and really remind them this is like a war that is, you know, it’s a warrior mode and that you have to stare down the fear. You have to acknowledge the fear. You can’t bypass it, but it requires a mindful presence. And that’s really important that the outside world does not dictate that space in our mind that we can own even.

[00:06:24] Frankl, obviously, who wrote in Search of Answers for meaning, said there’s a space between stimulus and response and that’s where you want to live. So I start with this vertical integration of that most of our businesses out horizontal, I would say metaphorically, but this is time for vertical integration of all you’ve learned as the leader. And if you don’t have the skill of mindfulness, then the fear, Wolf, as the Native Americans use it in. Mark uses in his book as a metaphor that you are now not going to be making good decisions. You’re going to be reactive. You’re not in that space between stimulus and response. And that’s where you want to live.

[00:07:00] Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of that it’s an interesting concept, that difference between something that is scary and being scared, you know, kind of experiencing, you know, a fearful situation.

[00:07:09] And then what is your what is your response and and your ability to put you kind of put that distance or put some space or realize that there is a choice there at some level in terms of how what internal reaction you are going to have or allow yourself to be in on that.

[00:07:26] And I think it’s it that’s for me, that’s kind of the root of a lot of this stuff is being able to do that. If you can do that, then you have options. If you can’t do that, really, you don’t have options. You’re being controlled by that situation.

[00:07:36] And it’s hard to it is something you could learn, but this is a tough time to learn it. So that’s why all my executive leaders are been trained in a practice of mindfulness. That’s one simple way to do it is called box breathing that Mark has shared with thousands of people who now really turned to him for some guidance because he’s a warrior. He’s been in fire. You know, there’s life fire. And he says, look, folks, it was easier being a seal than being in the business again. He says we’ll put our pants on the same. And so the idea here is that I focus on this and I’ve written a book called Accelerate Through Conflict. And the subtitle is The Missing Conversations Before It’s Too Late. And the first step is to seize the moment and regain focus. And that’s what I’m encouraging everyone to do. So what are you being seized by?

[00:08:25] Is my metaphore marks is you know, what is you know, you got to stare down this fear, but it seizes us.

[00:08:31] And so how do we loosen its grip? That requires just an authentic ability to have dialogue with someone. And that’s where coaches can come in, where you can just articulate like, oh, my God, I am afraid I had a CEO call me Monday.

[00:08:45] He owns a billion dollars worth of apartment buildings and he has various banks with millions of dollars do and possibly 30, 40 percent of the folks who read from him won’t have to follow up.

[00:08:58] So. So he and I talked and that’s why he needed to name that. We needed to look at it. But then we went to regain your focus. I suggest that they use critical thinking. So I took him through this conversation. All right. Let’s challenge assumptions. What are you assuming? So we we talked about the worst case scenario. And then then 80 percent of that, then 50 percent, then 20 percent. I think you think like that, too. You know, to Bruce, it’s like let’s look at what are we assuming because he realized that he was allowing the assumptions to seize him rather than his business mind or this inner sense, even his spiritual self, realizing the things of this world change and go away.

[00:09:35] And there’s this internal this pure wife within us that we need to access during this time.

[00:09:41] So by the time we finish with our conversations, he had him had challenged his own assumptions. We wrote them down. We began to plan, what will I do if this if this if this is called, if then sequencing occurs, then I’ll do this.

[00:09:55] But it’s hard to do for yourself. That’s why this is the time to work with a coach. Yeah, you can’t do that.

[00:10:01] I have a coach who’s helping me do it my business. And then I just know it’s really easy to remember. Challenge assumptions, root out biases. You have a bias for your business, but also people you’re working with have a bias for safety, for their family, for their kids, for their childcare. So you just kind of sort it out with somebody, then ask questions that draw. New alternatives and then write those down and kind of look at this scenario of this map and then press for the evidence to support the solutions you have.

[00:10:28] So by the time we finished with that, he had a plan. I talked to him again on Wednesday with his business partner and we have we continue the conversation. But that night I talked to him then Thursday and he said he slept like a baby. Wasn’t just because of my coaching. I don’t think I think it was because the federal government was going to help with their mortgages and there was other help that he hadn’t thought about. So anyway, I hope that makes sense and help. Yeah.

[00:10:54] Absolutely. And I think that one of the interesting things I think this is actually like an A.P. trick or something. But I think one of things that happens with this is once you do kind of lay out, all right, well, what are the different scenarios? What are the probability of these things?

[00:11:06] What would be my response? And once you start developing these responses and, you know, even if they’re bad situations, right. I have to, you know, reduce my staff. I’m going to be you know, I’m going to cut my business down. I’m gonna have to let certain things go. I may have to make some really hard decisions just writing down the response that you would have and realizing that. Okay. Well, that’s what I would do. Just reduces a lot of this anxiety and uncertainty, because I think that half of what people end up dealing with or struggling with in these situations is just this unknown. And even you’ll be just developing some kind of plan, even it’s a really ugly plan. Having a plan in place just starts reducing that uncertainty, reducing that emotional reaction. I now know what I can do. Now I can start thinking about what else could I do, what what creative solutions can I do around this or how could I really start influencing the future? Right. How can I start moving us down a better path than other paths on this? It’s a good sign. I think it’s a little sort of psychological trick, but I think it just frees up the mind to not have to worry about thing as much, because now you know what it is and you can start being a little more creative. I’m curious if you’ve seen that in a groups that you’ve worked with.

[00:12:13] Well, yeah, it’s the basic idea that you need to name your emotions, because when you named something in your mind, you become an observer.

[00:12:20] So it’s extremely important to observe the news if you keep on analyzing and judging. That’s bad news. Well, this is good news. This is bad news. It’s just news. And so it’s that Zen concept of mindful presence of just observe and make really much better decisions because you’re not so gripped by the outside forces. So naming something is the key.

[00:12:40] And I would say for all of you who are CEOs, listen deeply. And I here’s a concept that took me years to figure out, listen to learn, ask to empower.

[00:12:51] So listen to learn the perceptions that the judgments, the biases, the the traps, the blind spots. But just listen and learn and don’t fix anything right away. When you’re having conversations with your senior team or with your staff, just listen deeply, more deeply than you’ve ever listened before. You ask ask questions that they can begin to understand, you know, just to sort out. And I think then you always ask. We learned this from a guy named Michael Bing, Bengay stanier, that you say, then what’s the real challenge for you? That’s really impl. What’s the real challenge for you as a. Is a question that everyone should ask. And then and what else and what else? You did a little bit more. So that’s more of the conversational side of it. The other pieces I would recommend is listen to your automatic thoughts. And that’s where the judgments and biases are gone. Our story is going to be horrible. So you got to write or we have a bias where it’s going to be OK.

[00:13:47] But I think what you’re saying, write it down, name it, do that. You don’t do that alone. And then you begin to you begin to be less seized by the problem on the outside and begin to find your way through it.

[00:14:00] Yeah. So one thing I’ve certainly found is that CEOs are working with their leadership teams.

[00:14:04] You know, one of best things they can do is is just help their teams, help the individuals of their their leadership team go through this process, helping them, coaching them to actually go through the OK. So what are the issues? What are the assumptions? What are the probabilities? What are the cases that you’re worried about, the probabilities of those happening? What are the responses? How would you deal with that? You know, once you can sort of help them unwind this kind of complicated thinking in their head, giving them some insight and some kind of laying it out for them, gives them the space to now start thinking of some other alternatives. Well, what else could we do? What are we not thinking of? The assumptions really true as our way our data we could collect are things we could do that would change the probability of some of this stuff. You know, I think it’s one of the best roles we have as a CEO.

[00:14:44] And also remember the neuro physiology of what that is. The Neuro Leadership Institute, if they’re not getting the blogpost by David Rock from the Neuro Leadership Institute, you shouldn’t do that. Get off this stuff. Listen to us and go Google. I’ll put I’ll put it in the show notes. People can click there. Really? Because it’s a real simple idea. Everyone’s either in a toward or a threat state. It’s just the social conditioning that we’ve had since we were cavemen and women. Yeah. You go around the bend and is this tribe friendly or kill me? Right. So there’s a real simple model that you could reference, Bruce, that I think could help everyone that when you’re when you’re having these what I call in.

[00:15:20] Settlement conversations before they become crucial. These are moments where you’re just seizing the moment to have critical thinking.

[00:15:27] When you write it down and listen, there is an acronym I’d like for everyone just to jot down just for just a brief. I’ll share what it means. It’s easy to remember. Scarf. Yes. See a r f. So when you’re having conversations with your yourself, with your team, your employees, the S stands for status. So what is my status with you? And what is my status now with the company? And they’re gonna be in a tremendous threat state depending on their role and your company. And some may lose their steps or there may be. They may be let go. I don’t know. But you have to at least acknowledge that that’s what their threat is. Their status is being threatened. Second is certainty. Man talking about with tremendous uncertainty. So then what can you be certain about? What can you offer that you’ll do? What help can you get? Will you? Is there something you can share with them that gives them some sense of hate regardless of the outside? You can be certain that we’re going to be thinking and doing this. Here’s our core values. Here’s here’s how we’re gonna live as a as a business or as us as humans helping each other in the same business. So certainty that again, you can’t always make. Obviously, it’s a uncertainty, but you just need to know that that’s what they’re thinking. Status, certainty. Then the next is autonomy. See, when we’re told here in Indiana, we were told to shut down. Our autonomy was taken away. Now, that puts puts you in a threat state if you don’t have choice. Is our relatedness. What’s my relationship with you as the boss? If you’re the CEO or your executive leader? What’s my relationship with my team? Is it going to be disrupted? How will we go forward? Will we be able to stay connected on Xoom or Skype or whatever? And finally, F stands for Fair. There’s just going to be tremendous sense of what’s fair. And as if you have to do some hard decisions that keep your business alive and just sustainable. It could be perceived as fair.

[00:17:21] So again, you you just need to be aware that these are the threats and name the threat. Just like you said, name it. Write it down. And then to whatever degree you can address it, I would suggest that could be a real simple model to help. Remember that you want to move them towards something that once this is passed, this is where we’re headed. And right now you’re moving there experiencing threats state that push you away from and these unconsciously is what people are going through.

[00:17:48] Yeah. And I think it’s it’s interesting. I think I love the motto kids.

[00:17:51] It’s a great checklist for a leader to kind of, you know, use it, kind of go through and say, hey, where where is the issue or where is the biggest obstacle to that sort of better thinking, more constructive thinking and realizing that different members of your team may be at different stages or or different situations. Right. Some some might be more focused on the fairness aspect. Some might be more focused on the the certainty aspect. And I think one of the things I’ve certainly I’m encouraging, you know, my my SEO clients to do is really take some time to check in with each one of their their leadership team members and understand where are they in this? Because I think one of the challenges is as a CEO, if you go into these situations and kind of assume that, you know, everyone’s thinking the same way or everyone’s reacting to it in the same way, you’re going to run you’re gonna run into problems or you’re going to miss opportunities. And I think having that checking process or using this model to kind of go through and really understand where each one of your team members is, is going to give you a lot more insight and probably better strategies of how you’re going to deal with the situations.

[00:18:49] They’ll be more customized to the person. So here’s another tip. Your check him pick the top three right now for you, the listener.

[00:18:57] And you’ll be imposing that on other people. Yeah. So that that’s unconscious. So you don’t want to impose you want to just be free enough to listen deeply. Listen to. Asked him how.

[00:19:07] Listen to learn there’s threat and then address it by just acknowledging that that is their concern. And whether or not you can fix it is not the issue. It’s at least understanding and acknowledging it. And that to whatever degree you’re loyal to them or have a agreement with them, that’s then how you have to decide.

[00:19:26] But if you can debrief the amygdala, the part of the brain, the the whole experience of getting hijacked by threat, you want to debrief that? That’s why my first step is seize the moment and regain focus and quiet the mind. And that’s that’s a good way to do that.

[00:19:42] Now, let me ask you. I get this question a lot from from people in general, from some clients.

[00:19:49] How much should leaders be kind of exposing their own kind of feelings for all nobility as concerns?

[00:19:55] And how much should they be being kind of the unflappable, you know, determined, you know, no emotions, just kind of go in there and like say it like it is.

[00:20:05] I get this question a lot like how how vulnerable, how how much should leaders be kind of revealing some of this stuff to their teams and how much they need to just kind of put on the put on the facade or put on the put on the hat to lead the situation and be confident, even if inside there they’re dealing with all these things.

[00:20:19] Yeah. Jack. I would say it’s open book.

[00:20:22] You know, and so there are some businesses where they’re, you know, everybody’s involved, they have ownership and that’s when it’s just transparent.

[00:20:29] The business owners that I work with have highly confidential conversations with financial analysts that work with I do do a lot of work with commercial real estate. So they’re keeping those conversations. They’re they’re not sugarcoating what’s going on, but they don’t unduly create a threat. So let’s say if the gentleman I talked to on Monday would have expressed all of his worry before he found out that the government was actually going to significantly reduce the threat they went from, I mean, he really knots down within three or four days. That was only with his his business partner. And they have they called asset managers. I would just say just determine, Will, what I share so much of a threat. Undue threat or is it something that they really do need to know and I’m not going to hide. So that’s what the question is, you know? So then but you got to work that out with having a coach is fine. You know, I can’t do it myself. Even you can’t, Bruce. You know, we need advisers to help us because we’re blinds. We have a blind spot because of our own. Maybe know it’s our own experience. You know, we’re going through that right now for our business right now. So. Absolutely. So, I mean, that’s I hope that gave some guidelines.

[00:21:44] I think that makes sense. And I think it’s that the piece that I like about that, it’s it’s really you need to think through what what is going to help your people be and in the right kind of mental state.

[00:21:54] You know, the the mindset to make better decisions. And in some cases, they’re going to need the information, like the information is going to be helpful. It’s going to be part of their plan. They need to figure out a strategy for it. In other cases, if it puts them into, you know, a VUCA, you know, fear mode, you know, in a state where there they are going to be under so much threat that they’re not going to make good decisions, then. Then I think that gives you pause. I think you need to figure out how can you talk about that? Get that information in a way that is going to keep them in a positive, creative, constructive mindset.

[00:22:21] Now, rely on people. You just said Buka. That means volatile, uncertain, complex and big. Yes, exactly. A lot of turns we throw around here. Yeah. Yeah. You know, here’s another concept.

[00:22:32] This is the most senior owner or leader or executive linger with ambiguity for a while. Don’t be so reactive that you have to decide.

[00:22:40] So think through what is this person? What are you hearing from them before you respond?

[00:22:45] If you’re working with employees or managers who are really in a threat state and linger with some ambiguity and don’t have a quick answer, but just listen deeply, more deeply than ever before and recognize that you have a rule that you can help decompress their assumptions and biases that are sending them into stories in their mind that are true and that you clarify those. But it first begins by debriefing. And that’s often that’s what I had to do with these tough minded cops and firefighters in this critical incident, stress debriefing. They had to force them to go into because these are tough guys know. And while we reduce, we’d sit around talk and we would debrief and just naming the emotions, no answer that they walk away like, man. I would go to that meeting, but that was so good. So I would suggest that you do another rule that a coach could have is to go into your work with your managers and just help facilitate and just have people speak and acknowledge what they’re experiencing. Have some clear direction from you. Here’s how we’re handling it this week or week by week. You should be communicating often daily, more than likely, but someplace to debrief. So this morning we just found out there’s a company called Amplify and if anyone is interested, amplified dot com slash well-being. The managers can get a free assessment of their teams to actually see how the what the experiences of engagement and what it gives is just as a good handle on understanding what’s underneath the hood, because people may not be sharing really what they’re experiencing.

[00:24:20] Yeah. And they had to be aware of it, quite honestly. I mean, I think that’s a big leap. I’ve run in that situation a lot where people are in that kind of threat mode and they don’t even realize it. Right. Right. You mentioned something earlier. I wanted to dig in a little bit. I came out of the lean, agile software space. And one of the kind of underlying tenants or things that we talk about a lot and only natural is waiting till the last responsible moment.

[00:24:42] And you mentioned this kind of sitting with an ambiguity. I think it’s a really key one right now, because I think a lot of what happens are one real risk that a lot of leaders face is because of this heightened tension, because of the severity of the situation. There is this need, this drive to make decisions, to take action. And while, yes, there are certain cases and times and situations where, you know, time is of the essence, I think you do run into a lot of situations where you kind of overreact or at least react prematurely and being okay with sitting with uncertainty or sitting with ambiguity or sitting with not having made a decision for a little while. And figuring out when do I need to make this decision? You know, finding that responsible moment, do I need to make it today? Do I need to make it tomorrow? Does it need to be the end of the week and giving yourself that time to let some of that stuff play out? Because I always find that time. Time is a real benefit in these situations because it’s going to give you that and it’s probably gonna give you more information.

[00:25:40] All right. You’re going to have more information to be able to make a decision against. You’re going to decompress the situation a little bit, probably open up some ideas, probably open up some communications that could actually lead to better options. And quite honestly, some things end up resolving themselves with enough time. Something either may get resolved or something else takes its place that you don’t actually need to make the decision. So one of the things I do a lot of when we’re kind of faced with these situations with teams is, well, OK, yes, there here’s a decision that needs to be made. When does it need to be made? What is the last responsible moment or when do we run into a case where while if we don’t make it by this point, then we then we have some issues or we also outcomes we don’t like. But do we need to make it right? The second, if we don’t need to make this the second. When do we need a bucket? What can we do between now and then?

[00:26:24] Yes. And beautiful. Well said. I worked with a lot of lot of folks who just lean on lean and the ideas linger with ambiguity because also remember, most of our best decisions are not conscious.

[00:26:38] They come from our unconscious. So you’ve got to rest. You’ve got to sleep. You’ve got to sit in the swim spot. Go what the heck you’ve got, because sleep on it. If you can, just like you said to the last responsible moment

[00:26:51] Also, you know, the research is really amazing on high level professional athletes when they’re in the zone. They find that there’s a moment of pause and then they’re faster. It’s just a moment that they linger that other athletes don’t. And then they’re they’re decisive. And so it’s, I think, a metaphor or it’s physiologically similar thing. You linger and then you’re fast. And one of my colleagues, one of my coaching clients, but colleague as well, wrote a book, Slow Down to Grow Fast. And so it’s a similar idea. Slow, Dale. Yeah. Yeah, that’s why I called in the moment. Conversations is let’s let’s seize the moment. Rather than being seized by these outside forces, then let’s craft a shared vision and then let’s build organizational alignment and then let’s champion execution habits. That’s my four step model. And I be glad if anybody what goes on line buys the book. You show me the receipt, I’ll give you a coaching session.

[00:27:44] I’ll put the link to the book on the on the show notes here.

[00:27:47] So you go and get an immediate application because let’s have the conversations before they become crucial. Yeah.

[00:27:54] You know, I like personal conversations with folks. They’ve got that nailed. This is before you have the crucial conversations.

[00:28:00] And I think that the idea of lingering with ambiguity gives you a chance to do that. Observe, does it?

[00:28:07] Odah Oh d._a observer. Orient.

[00:28:11] Orient, you decide. So anyway. Yes. Throw that to reinforce what you were saying.

[00:28:18] Bruce Now the script. Any other kind of advice, suggestions that you are giving to your to the leaders that you work with in terms of the things they really start doing?

[00:28:28] You know, the next, you know, days, weeks that have been helpful or, you know, pieces of advice that you’ve been giving, you know, I call it first thoughts, last thoughts.

[00:28:36] So the first thoughts of the day, I suggest the poem by colleague Doussa, three thousand year old poem, that when the sun is rising and it’s just peeking over the horizon, your first thoughts are important.

[00:28:47] And Kelly Doussa says this look to this day, for it is life, the very life of life in his brief course. Why all the varieties and realities of your existence, the bliss of growth, the glory of action and the splendor of beauty where yesterday is. But a memory tomorrow is only a dream. But today, well, lift makes every yesterday a memory of happiness and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look. Well, therefore, to this day, such as the salutation to the dawn. So the concept is wake up to yours, whatever spiritual direction you have inside of you. And then last thoughts at night. Tremendous practice of counting it.

[00:29:25] A happy privilege that you’ve faced these troubles and so many, so many things to be thankful for and then go to sleep. Have really great ideas generated from your huge unconscious mind and wake up with some new insights.

[00:29:41] Yeah, very, very stoic. I’m I’m a big sort of stoic philosopher guy. And I think that’s very much a lot of, you know, seize the day, do it. You can focus on the things you can control, you know, but don’t worry about the things. You can’t live a good life.

[00:29:54] And I think I’ve got unfortunately, times like this is when this stuff really starts to apply. And, you know, it’s it’s kind of the test of our test of our focus.

[00:30:03] Yeah. Thanks for your work. Man. Yeah, you’re digging in. Good. Good work. And I’ll blast this out to my email list and all that. And so thank you. Appreciate all the travelling as well

[00:30:12] Now, I thank you, Craig. I appreciate it. And thanks for spending some time with me today. All right. Take care.

[00:30:18] You’ve been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach, Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full list of podcast episodes, download the tools and worksheets and access other great content, visit the website at and don’t forget to sign up for the free newsletter at